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Report 489
Report #489 Skillset: Skill: Monk-Kicks Org: Tahtetso Status: Completed Oct 2010 Furies' Decision: See Announce 1683 Problem: Monks are currently capable of kicking out of form. This means a monk can use either a guild specific kick or a normal kick outside of the form, voiding the ka costs that would normally be associated with it with no penalty other than the inability to use modifiers with the kick. This is especially potent at low levels of momentum where the monk only has access to 250 - 350 ka and is capable of saving 100 ka by using a basic kick outside of the form. This allows the monk to act 1/3 or 1/4 ka higher than they really are suppose to have access to and use the ka that would of been used in the kick to add things like speed modifiers to the form, artificially increasing monk combat speed. This is especially true with guild specific kicks like Tahtetso Starkick, which does good damage and afflictions with no downside to using outside of form, saving 125 ka. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Only allow monk leg actions within the limits of forms, IE Kick, Starkick, ect 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Increase the balance time of kicks when used outside of form, and divorce the balance recovery of kicks from arm balance Player Comments: ---on 10/15 @ 21:13 writes: I've no problem with solution 1. ---on 10/16 @ 00:07 writes: I prefer solution 2 over solution 1. Monks should have the ability to use kicks out of form but suffer the drawbacks if they so choose to do so. I -definitely- agree with the problem this report presents, however. I'd be in favour of something a long the lines of a 33% balance penalty (average of 3 seconds becomes 4 seconds for out-of-form kicks) and maybe even making regen cures caused by kick require it to be in form. ---on 10/18 @ 03:43 writes: On behalf of Janalon: The Nekotai wish to propose a third solution: disable afflicitons on any out of form kick with an associated momentum loss penalty. This should limit monks to mostly basic kata kicks and low-level affliction kicks out of form. ---on 10/18 @ 13:17 writes: Removing the afflictions from momentum kicks does not stop the free wounds and non momentum kick afflictions. Ideally, I'd like to see all methods of circumventing the ka system removed. This is one of them ---on 10/19 @ 03:39 writes: I disagree with that. Monks should be able to use actions out of form, and after reconsidering the report, I don't think the solutions will solve anything. Kicks might be penalized, but then one just moves the kick in and the hand action out. I think the better thing to do would be to fix the problem at its source: remove regen affs from working out of form and address monk wounding and damage separately. I wish you would have consulted the monk clan before submitting. ---on 10/20 @ 10:31 writes: Support for solution 1, as well, consider limiting hand actions in the same manner as kicks in the solution, issue described in Sahmiam's above comment. ---on 10/21 @ 02:08 writes: If the purpose of the report is to eradicate monks combining katas with independent ka actions, then this report does not go far enough. Why focus on kicks when (as Sahmiam identifies) we go could about putting kicks in form, and placing armed combat as independent ka actions. Please disable monks from combining katas and independent ka actions. However, if the Furies decide to allow katas with out of form combos, then remove afflictions on both leg and hand actions: 1) on all regen affs, 2) if there is any momentum drop, 3) the weight is greater than 250 ka (i.e. outweight 0mo and 1mo forms). Of course these criteria would not include Starkick, which Lorick identified as being overpowered outside of form so there may still be a need to Envoy up individual skills as well. ---on 10/21 @ 07:36 writes: Would it be possible to just make it that if a kata form has been performed in the last x seconds, prevent out-of-form KA actions from taking place? ---on 10/23 @ 01:38 writes: After speaking with Janalon, I am honestly not against requiring all actions to take place within a form. I sumitted kicks mostly because that was the major source of abuse, but a flat standardization across all monk guilds in this fashion would eliminate any problems that may arise from these methods. Any time someone strikes out of form, they avoid paying ka which is the only limit on a majority of monk actions. Now, most hand strikes no longer cause afflictions, but they are free wounds essentially. Kicks were just the primary concern due to afflictions, wounds, and the fact kicks recover balance along with arms. ---on 10/23 @ 05:42 writes: I think Raeri's idea leads to the best solution. It can solve the problem of having out-of-form actions avoid ka costs while still allowing for people to fight out of form should they desire it. I would like to see a third solution in which no out-of-form actions can be used after a form until the monk regains full balance (maybe equilibrium too?). Thus using a form would prevent outside- form actions until the monk would be able to perform another form. This should apply to all ka actions. ---on 10/23 @ 23:19 writes: I Agree with Raeri and Sahmiam. Keep out of form actions, but make it so that out of form actions cannot be performed simultaneously with kata in form attacks. ---on 10/24 @ 08:26 writes: The problem in this suggestion seeks to address usage of kicks at low momentum levels, really, basically before a monk gets particularly far into a form to begin with. Changing it so out-of-form actions can be used after a monk regains full balance really just applies a bandaid solution without really addressing the issue. ---on 10/24 @ 23:01 writes: Nydekion, I fail to see your point. The solution gets to the very heart of the issue. The problem is monks using forms AND out-of-form actions simultaneously avoiding ka costs WHILE still enjoying the advantages of a form. If a monk wants to waste balance to use an out-of-form action, then so be it. Forms are superior to out-of-form actions in that they can be modified, contribute to momentum, and require less balance time. Should the solution that Raeri, Janalon, and I support go through, any monk that decides to use an out-of-form action is going to be stuck with low or no momentum while doing considerably less in the way of afflictions, damage, wounds, etc. It is utterly inefficient for a monk to sacrifice balance for an out-of-form action when the monk could use a form. ---on 10/26 @ 10:07 writes: My point is simple. There's no sense in a convoluted solution if you're saying that it is inefficient for a monk to use out-of-form actions if limited for X seconds. You'd either end up making it be a mechanic that won't be used or something that wouldn't address the problem at all by still allowing out-of-form actions to circumvent the ka system. Hence, it would make the most sense to simply make all actions require a form in the same way that warriors are unable to deal afflictions or damage that circumvent the deepwounds system. ---on 10/27 @ 00:42 writes: Simple solution: cannot initiate out-of-form, independent ka actions while off balance due to a kata form. Cannot initiate a kata form while off balance for an independent, out-of-form ka action. This goes for kicks as it does grapples and arms. It's what we've been saying all along though perhaps in more convoluted commentary. ---on 10/27 @ 00:44 writes: Oh, and please keep options for both kata forms and ka actions.